Grief, Guilt & Finding Grace With Arthritis  

Released April 14,2026 

PODCAST OPEN: Thank you for tuning in to the Live Yes! With Arthritis podcast, produced as a public service by the Arthritis Foundation. You may have arthritis, but arthritis doesn’t have you. Here, you’ll get information, insights and tips you can trust — featuring volunteer hosts and guest experts who live with arthritis every day and have experience with the challenges it can bring. Their unique perspectives may help you — wherever you are in your arthritis journey. The Arthritis Foundation is committed to helping you live your best life through our wide-ranging programs, resources and services. Our podcast is made possible in part by the generous financial contributions of people like you. Now let’s listen in. (MUSIC BRIDGE) 

Stacy Courtney: Welcome to the Live Yes With Arthritis podcast. My name is Stacy Courtney, and I'm happy to be your host today. Pain, fatigue, stiffness and other physical symptoms may be the most obvious effects of living with arthritis, but the mental and emotional tolls can be so great. Arthritis can steal one's ability to do what they love, to have the life they look forward to and undermine the relationships one might have taken for granted. With those losses come grief and sometimes guilt that can be hard to know how to navigate. Joining us today to talk about these emotional stresses and ways of dealing with them is psychotherapist Destiny Davis, who specializes in working with people who live with chronic illnesses like arthritis. Welcome, Destiny, to the podcast. 

I'm excited to have this conversation with you. I've had rheumatoid arthritis for 25 years now, and so I've experienced all sorts of emotions over the years, from how it affects, obviously, myself, my husband, my family, my 18-year-old son who's had to see me in pain over the years. Tell me a little bit about yourself and your practice and some ways that we all can cope with chronic illnesses like arthritis. 

Destiny Davis: Yeah. So, I'm Destiny Davis. I do have a practice in Atlanta, Georgia, and I work only with people who have chronic pain of some sort, usually stemming from a chronic illness. Sometimes that is arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, as well as things like long COVID and other conditions that are becoming more and more common these days. I, myself, have lived with chronic pain for a long time, many years now. You mentioned kind of how it affects you and your husband and your family, and that's really a lot of what I'm working on daily with people, is how do you kind of protect the relationship with yourself and then also with people around you. And what I've learned over these years is that it feels a little bit counterintuitive at first, but the more vulnerable we are and the more we ask for what we need and be very clear about our boundaries and what we can do and can't do, our quality of life really increases, which is the opposite of what a lot of people think when they first come into therapy. 

Stacy Courtney: I'm very open to sharing my journey and what I can and can't do, but I know that's hard for a lot of people. I'm not ashamed to say I'm exhausted, I need a nap today, but I know that that is really difficult for some people. 

Destiny Davis: Being in a vulnerable state by definition is the ability to be harmed. There's a lack of safety that comes with being vulnerable. So, when we're attempting to be vulnerable, we do want to make sure that we're doing it in a place where there is some relative safety. I wouldn't really encourage people to just, you know, go tell everybody at work what's happening to you, and you don't even know half these people, and you don't know how they're going to respond. But over time, little by little, it becomes easier to become vulnerable in the safer places. 

I think trying to learn how to be vulnerable with a health condition really requires us to look at a lot of our beliefs about what it means to be tired or sick or not able to do certain things. I do think understanding what we believe about the society we live in is really important when it comes to how you decide to share and when you decide to share with people about your needs. It also impacts how you're able to be honest with yourself about what you need. 

Stacy Courtney: Tell me more about that. 

Destiny Davis: Our society is one in which, if you're not working for money, then you're not considered a productive member of society. If you are too unwell to work, you're going to face a lot of discrimination. Sometimes in your family, sometimes not. Sometimes you have a great, supportive family, and that's really, really helpful. We call that a protective factor, something that helps you not experience some of the worst things that can happen when you really just are experiencing a bunch of risk factors, like people who don't believe you or family members that make you feel bad for what you need, et cetera. But the fact of the matter is we do still live in a society in which disability is something that is seen as a moral failing, like you have done something wrong to cause this, whether that is you have the wrong diet or you didn't exercise enough. 

Stacy Courtney: What are some of the most common problems you hear from people who are suffering some type of loss from their chronic illness? 

Destiny Davis: The loss usually looks like they lost the job that they love or the sport that they love, that they cannot do it anymore without really intense consequences to their body. When we make that choice to stop doing what we love because of the consequences to our body, we tend to get really down on ourselves that, like, “Maybe I quit too soon,” or “Maybe I should've just kept pushing through.” There's a lot of self-blame there, because it's easier to blame ourselves than something else that's outside of us that we don't have any control over. There's a lot of identity reconstruction that has to happen. 

One of the things in rehabilitation counseling is we look at transferable skills. Let's say one of the skills that's required to be a runner, a marathon runner, is you have to have grit to kind of keep going, right? Well, we can transfer that skill. If you are no longer physically able to run because of your condition, we can transfer that skill of grit into managing your illness. We want to be careful that we're not jumping to that too quickly, because people deserve the right to grieve what they've lost. But over time, clients will come to their own understanding of what it is they like about themselves, what their skills are now versus before, what that means about them as a human and as a relational person, a spouse, a mom, a worker. So, there's a lot of grief and identity reconstruction that's happening. 

Stacy Courtney: Tell me a little bit about ambiguous grief. Can you explain what that means? 

Destiny Davis: Ambiguous grief is very complex. The word ambiguity is when something's not quite clear. So, I think for a lot of people, when we think of grief, we think about the death of a loved one. And so that is very clear. That person is no longer here, and we grieve it, and there's nothing else to do with that, right? Because all you can do is accept that this person's no longer here. When you have a condition, especially a dynamic disability, one day you're actually totally fine and the next day you're bedridden again from something, and you don't even really know what. It's ambiguous in that it's unclear and it's complex, which makes it really easy for us to fall into the trap of, "Well, if I could run yesterday, then maybe I'm just being lazy for not running today, or maybe I ate the wrong thing, and it's my fault again." 

Stacy Courtney: That is a big challenge for myself, having rheumatoid arthritis, is yes, like, yesterday I'm great. Today I'm exhausted and I can barely pick up my coffee cup or something. Then you have the shame of people don't believe you and how could it be? One day you're great, and the next day you're not? So, I could totally relate to that. 

Destiny Davis: Yeah. And there's an analogy I like to use that sometimes helps people picture what's happening. I think it's very important in chronic illness care to really know the science behind your condition. When you're able to really look at how the body works and what research knows about your condition, it becomes a little bit easier to understand how you might have those fluctuating days. But another analogy that I really like to use with people is this analogy of the bucket. So, stressors fill the bucket up, anything from environmental stressors to emotional stressors to work stress. For some of us, we do have food allergies or certain foods that trigger different symptoms. Then it's possible it can add to that stress bucket. It is a multiple layering of things. 

This can be a tricky conversation, because we don't want people to get so hung up on being perfect about never filling up their bucket. It's really about understanding what fills up your bucket, knowing which parts of that you do have control over and which parts you don't have control over, and really accepting the parts that you don't have control over because there's nothing else that you can do about it. Once that bucket is full, symptoms overflow, and that can be a flare-up or smaller symptoms. It also might help someone understand why it seemed like today when I had ice cream, it led to this flare-up tonight, but I had ice cream last week and nothing was wrong after that. If you see it as like, well, yeah, I had ice cream last week and nothing happened because those five other stressors in the bucket weren't present. So, I was able to tolerate the ice cream. 

Stacy Courtney: Right. That's a great analogy. 

Destiny Davis: It applies even to just emotional stressors, too. Like, even just physical illness aside, if you stub your toe and you're at the beach and, you know, you've got no work calls on the calendar and your kids are laughing, having a great time, and you stub your toe, you just move on and barely notice it. But if you stubbed your toe after a long day of work, where your boss yelled at you and your kids just failed their test and they have a project due tomorrow and dinner has to get on the table, you are probably going to cuss (laughter) about your stubbed toe. So, this is an example that I like to use with people, because everyone has done that, where they've stubbed their toe on a good day and a bad day, and the pain is definitely different. 

Stacy Courtney: Absolutely. 

PROMO: The Arthritis Foundation offers essential resources for newly diagnosed patients, including educational materials to help them better understand their condition better. We offer support groups and online communities for patients to connect with others facing similar challenges. Additionally, we can refer you to health care professionals for guidance on treatment options and lifestyle adjustments. Learn more at arthritis.org/newly-diagnosed. 

Stacy Courtney: Let's talk a little bit about anticipatory grief. 

Destiny Davis: Yeah. Anticipatory grief is you're already expecting that a grief is going to happen, and sometimes that is completely accurate. Let's say we were a runner, so that's a part of our identity, and we want to kind of try to get into it again. If we have this history of every single time I run, it does cause a flare-up, I might eventually start to have this kind of anticipatory grief of: It's going to cause a flare-up, and it's going to remind me of what I've lost. And so, we might even be grieving before we even go out the door to run. And sometimes that's really legitimate, mixed with the education of knowing about your condition and what your doctors have told you, like: Can you keep running? Or do you need to switch that activity out or change how you run? 

Let's say my daughter is getting married next month, and I'm already anticipating that I'm going to be in pain the whole weekend, and so I'm not going to be able to be as present for her as I'd like. And so, I'm anticipating already having that grief experience. If it's not managed, if we just try to shut it away, it's going to come back to bite us, and it's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. But when you really have a safe space to process this kind of grief and to talk through all of these things that you're scared of that are going to happen without somebody on the other side telling you, “Well, you just shouldn't think about that, you know, don't think so negatively.” 

When we get that place of exploration, again, with compassion and non-judgment, it becomes a lot easier to start to see things more clearly, and this usually leads, in my conversations with clients, it usually leads into a conversation about accommodations. So, you might not be a wheelchair user, but maybe using a wheelchair would be the thing that helps you get through that weekend. 

Stacy Courtney: I always anticipate the fatigue from travel. That's something that I really have to plan for because, especially with international travel, I'm like, "OK, well, I know I'm going to be so exhausted the day that we get there and I'm going to have to nap. Everybody's going to want to go out and run on adrenaline, and I'm already anticipating feeling like crap." And so, that's something that I have to prepare for and kind of work through and just to let my family know I am going to take a nap. I'm sorry, I'm not going to be the person that pushes through like the rest of you. Because, you know, the fatigue part of any chronic illness, that's just the worst sometimes. 

Destiny Davis: You're right. It's like you might even still be grieving the fact that you are deciding to go sleep instead of go to dinner when you arrive, and that still might be the best decision for you. When we're talking about these two things that are, like, opposing, and there's really no good solution for, sometimes the follow-up there is like, "Well, I should just get over it then." You're allowed to do what you need to do, like go take a nap when you land, and also be sad about it. You're not going to stay in that, especially if you have these safe places to explore this. When you don't have the safe spaces to explore it, and you have to just keep shoving it down and shoving it down, that's where the grief doesn't go away. We don't have reprieve from the sadness. It just keeps snowballing into more and more sadness and anger and hurt. 

Stacy Courtney: And then to layer onto that, when people say, "But you look healthy. You don't look sick. You don't look like you have a chronic illness." And then I start feeling guilty about that. Well, am I supposed to look sick? Am I supposed to look miserable? 

Destiny Davis: I like to challenge that one with like, "Really? What does sick look like?" (laughs) 

Stacy Courtney: Yeah. Right. So, is loss related to chronic illness different than other loss? 

Destiny Davis: I would say loss related to chronic illness overlaps with a lot of the other kinds of loss as well. Especially if we're talking about ambiguous loss. There's, again, the clear loss of a death of a loved one, but there are other types of ambiguous losses as well, like estranged families where maybe someone has done something to harm another in a family, and now there's an estrangement, but we still tend to always want our family. There's this kind of complexity of, I really love them and I want them in my life, but they're also harmful to me every time we're together and so I have to be away from them. And I think chronic illness loss feels just like that, too. You have to be in your body every day, there's no other option, and your body is this source of pain and harm, and so there's a lot to work through there. 

Stacy Courtney: Let's talk a little bit about the loss of a career or the loss of vision for your future. That's something that I had to deal with because, when I was diagnosed at 22 years old, I had all these career goals, to be in the corporate world, and I wanted to go into event marketing and work my way up to the top, you know, and that came crashing down. It just comes out of nowhere a lot of times. I think the bucket gets so full, and then you have this major flare-up and then you get the diagnosis. And so, I had to stop working. It makes me very sad because I think, if I didn't have arthritis, I could have probably accomplished my dream job. And I mean, to this day, I still struggle with that. How do you deal with that? 

Destiny Davis: My first question is: What did you end up doing? As you left that job, what did you end up moving into next? 

Stacy Courtney: Having my son. (laughs) 

Destiny Davis: OK. Yeah. 

Stacy Courtney: My arthritis was getting so bad, and the doctors were like, "You know, you need to make a decision. You have a child now or basically never." So, we had our son. 

Destiny Davis: Wow. That's a big decision to have to make, too. Even that, which is obviously a beautiful thing, to have your child, comes with this loss of autonomy almost. It's like, I no longer have the ability to choose. I mean, I have to choose right now. I don't have the luxury of time to choose later. 

Stacy Courtney: Right. 

Destiny Davis: So, what have you been doing kind of since then, career-wise? 

Stacy Courtney: Volunteering for the Arthritis Foundation. That became my passion. Because after John was born in 2007, it was about five or six years before I got my arthritis under control and found the right biologic. And so, once I started feeling better and became more of myself again, I got back into exercising and, of course, John was at the age where there was a lot of volunteering at his school and everything. But then I got involved with the Foundation. And I feel like I'm a success story because I did finally find a medication that controls my symptoms, and I feel very fortunate because I know a lot of people have not found their miracle drug. And so, I say that I volunteer to raise money to help other people find their miracle drug, because the Foundation, you know, they pour millions of dollars into finding better, safer, more effective treatments for everybody. And so, my joy now is volunteering and giving other people hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel. 

Destiny Davis: I love that. I think that I've heard success stories like that more times than not in my office. And it's really difficult, I think, when somebody's going through it in the beginning to be, like, "Don't worry, you're going to get through this." And it's just usually not helpful at that time, too. It's kind of like when you have a newborn and people are, like, "Don't worry, this passes." And you're, like, "Well, what do I do right now?" (laughs) " I'm not sleeping." It's really going to require a lot of validating that grief, and allowing for that, and really to be taken care of during that time. This goes back to some of that societal cultural stuff. We don't really do a good job in the society of taking care of each other. 

I think we have a very independent, individualistic, “you must take care of yourself” kind of attitude. And it's not like that in some other cultures. They're a lot more communal and more, like, if somebody is sick, then we rally around them. So, if you do happen to have that community where people are rallying around you, accept it, take it. You may not be in this space always where you're going to be at the bottom of your worst physically. And then when you're feeling better, whatever better looks like for you, you can be a part of the crowd that rallies around somebody else. It always comes back to reciprocity. It's just important to accept the same thing that you would give to others, I think. 

There are other options sometimes, depending on the condition and the severity, in which we really look at ADA. The ADA has laws around accommodations and disability, and there are a lot of nuances with that, you know: how large the company is. I do a lot of work with people on getting accommodations at work and school. Accommodations are something that can't be an undue hardship to the company. Sometimes people feel like, “I’m this charity case,” like, “Well, if they let me work with this condition, then it’s because they pity me…” And that's not it at all. You can do your job just as well as someone else with some of these accommodations. And if that's the case, that's what the accommodations are there for. They're meant to bring everybody up to the same playing field. Those beliefs we have to start to dismantle, but these ADA laws keep a lot of people in work when they want to be working. 

PROMO: The Arthritis Foundation’s website is packed with helpful information about various types of arthritis and how to manage them. You can find inspiring stories from people living with arthritis every day, as well as opportunities to connect with others through support groups and community events. Get resources on physical activity with arthritis, nutrition tips that support joint health and so much more. Check us out at arthritis.org. 

Stacy Courtney: So, let's talk about the grief of not being believed, and that's something that I have dealt with. Also the guilt of being told that it's something that I did or something I didn't do, you know? I ate too much gluten, or I ate too much sugar, or… Then there's this guilt of, well, did I cause this? That part, I struggle with a lot. And then also when you're told, “Well, it’s not cancer,” you know? “So, it can’t be that bad, it’s not cancer.” And I say, “Well, it’s not, but having a chronic illness, your risk of cancer is greatly increased, and one is not better than the other.” How can I feel sorry for myself when it’s not cancer?” 

Destiny Davis: You might even be able to then relate to cancer patients because, after treatment is over and they're considered in remission, they tend to have a ton of brain fog, fatigue, joint pain, et cetera, after it's over, but yet all they hear from people are, "You're in remission, you should be so happy." And they're like, "Why do I still feel so bad?" I think it's important to know that we are all on this journey together, even if other people on the outside are pitting us against each other in a way that's comparative. It's also layered. 

In therapy, one thing we work on is kind of this sense of self. And so, how do you maintain a sense of what you know to be true, such as my condition changes, hour by hour sometimes, day by day, week by week. Other people might not believe that. And how do I stay in the truth of that and not let other people's disbelief make me question my own reality? Because questioning your own reality, I think, is where a lot of the mental health stuff is going to come into play. But when you really know who you are and what you're feeling, and you're not questioning that, it still doesn't feel good when people don't believe you. 

Stacy Courtney: That makes me think back to, if somebody asks you to go out to lunch and you're, like, "No, I feel so bad." But then you feel good enough to go out to dinner, but you don't want to be caught by this person. But that's just how it goes. I mean, it's hour by hour. 

Destiny Davis: I really wish we had this cultural understanding of dynamics and how you can feel. I might just not feel like going out to lunch, and I might feel like going out to dinner, and that should be good enough. But we do have a culture of, like, everybody's feelings get hurt really easily, and, you know, take things really personally, and I think it's to everyone's detriment. 

Stacy Courtney: What do you tell your patients when it comes to guilt around having a chronic illness and how it impacts your family? I would say for myself… So, my husband and my son, who's now 18… I had a lot of guilt around when John was a baby and things that I could not do with him — getting on the floor, playing outside with the football. Sometimes when we were playing, he would hit my joints, and I would just burst into tears, and then he would cry, like, "Mom, what'd I do?" So, I had a lot of guilt around that, but here we are 18 years later. I do feel like John is very empathetic to others who have chronic illnesses. He knows I have to nap. He knows sometimes I just don't have the energy to do certain things. The positive to that is he is empathetic to others who might be in the similar situation. But yeah, there was a lot of guilt over the years of things that I couldn't do. And then being a burden to my husband, my family. My parents lived with us for quite a while when I wasn't functioning. And so, there's a lot of guilt — and also gratefulness that I had the support system, because some people don't have that. 

Destiny Davis: First, it's so important to know the difference between guilt and shame, because guilt is, “I’ve done something wrong.” And shame is, “I am someone wrong.” I have a 2- and a 4-year-old, and there's things that I can't do with them as well. But the thing that I remind myself of constantly is: Am I doing something wrong? Or am I grieving the life that I had imagined I would have for my kids? Because my kids don't know any different. When you are coming from a loving home and everyone is doing their best, even if their best means, “I have arthritis that doesn't allow me to get down and play with you the same way that my neighbor gets down on her floor and plays for hours with her kids…” 

Yes, sometimes we do look back at our life and compare and think they had it better than I did. But I think for the most part in healthy, loving homes, children look back and they remember the moments they were loved. Unless there's abuse, I want to be so clear there. But children do. They know the love that you give them. The love you give them looks a little bit more like, “I’m a listening ear for you, and I’m not the one who can go outside and play ball.” Your kids are going to come to you when they need a listening ear, and they're not going to come to you when they want to go play ball. And that's OK. Somebody else can go play ball with them. They know where you stand in their life. 

So, my kids go to a very educative kind of daycare, not, like, anything strict. They do stuff with them. They do learning activities. I know that it allows me to then show up for my kids in the way that I enjoy showing up for them, while somebody else gets to do that teaching. I would never homeschool because I'm not a good teacher. (laughs) 

Stacy Courtney: (laughs) Yeah. 

Destiny Davis: I am so glad that there are other people in this world who can do that, because one person can't be everything. 

Stacy Courtney: That's a good segue into our next topic. So, we've talked a lot about the causes of grief and guilt. Let's talk now about ways of dealing with them. What type of therapy do you advise, and just as important, what can people do on their own to cope with these feelings in certain situations? 

Destiny Davis: I think first and foremost, it's really, really going to come down to the relationship that you have with the person that's helping you. I practice acceptance and commitment therapy, and this is a therapy that really focuses on helping people understand what their values are and what's important to them, rather than: Here’s what society says, and here's how to think differently and be better so that you fit in with society. This is much more of what's important to you. If you have a health condition, I do think if you're working with a therapist, they should at least have understanding about disability. And there is no specific training where you can be, like, "Oh, do you have a certification in this?" There isn't one like that, but you can ask them in the consultation call what their understanding of disability is and if they practice from a disability justice-informed lens. 

Acceptance and commitment therapy, it kind of differs a little bit from cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, in that CBT is often looking at what we call a maladaptive thought — a thought that is, quote, “wrong.” Acceptance and commitment therapy, I think, just brings us a little bit more into the values of why we're doing what we're doing and encourages us to make decisions from that place, rather than from kind of whether a thought is maladaptive or not. Really, the research does show that the relationship you have with your therapist is more important than whatever it is they practice. It really doesn't matter if you don't feel like your therapist knows or understands you. 

Stacy Courtney: What can people do on their own? Outside of therapy, what do you recommend? 

Destiny Davis: This is so different from person to person, but I do think it's really important for people to make sure they're really spending enough time in their own understanding of who they are. So, for some people, especially more introverted people, that's going to be a lot more alone time, that they really need that alone time to recharge and be with themselves. And for more extroverted people, in order to kind of have an understanding of themselves, they actually need more of a sounding board. So, they need this kind of chatty kind of conversation with their friends. 

It's really knowing yourself, knowing what you like, knowing what you need, and then doing that despite the guilt that's popping up. For example, you have kids who want you to go outside and play ball, but you're not really feeling OK enough to play ball. So, why don't you go take a walk while your partner or somebody else plays ball? You get that alone time, and then you all come in and reconvene and spend quality time in a different way. Or you teach your kids to enjoy a nature walk, and they can do both. They can play ball, and they can do these nice, slow kind of walks. So, it really is important. The self-care piece really comes down to knowing what it is that you want and need and just doing more of that, regardless of the guilt. 

Stacy Courtney: And like you said before, it's not shame. You should not shame yourself. 

Destiny Davis: Yeah, exactly. 

Stacy Courtney: That's a big piece. 

PROMO: A gift to the Arthritis Foundation helps fund vital research aimed at finding new treatments and conquering arthritis. Your contribution also supports education, resources and community events for those affected by this complex condition. Every donation plays a crucial role in improving the quality of life for millions of adults and children in the U.S. Donate today at arthritis.org/donate. 

Stacy Courtney: How do you suggest finding a therapist who you can connect with? 

Destiny Davis: A lot of therapists will offer a free 10-, 15-minute consultation call. This is a time where you can go and set up a time with them. Make sure they have an understanding of chronic illness and/or disability. So, you can ask those questions in the consult call. Sometimes, you know, we might be with a therapist who's afraid to challenge you, and you might need to be challenged, or vice versa; maybe they're challenging you too much. It's really a personality fit. It's kind of like dating, like, you might need to date around a few times before you find the right one. 

You might have a really good relationship with a therapist for, like, a year and a half, two years, and then you might need something different after that. You might have grown past what they can offer you. I have been on both sides of that, where I've had clients leave me after that period of time, and I've had other clients come to me after that period of time from someone else, and then we worked together for another two years. So, it really is a personality match. 

And there's some really good directories. I actually have a directory on my website as well, thechronicillnesstherapist.com, and that's where therapists who specialize in chronic illness are on. And it is important to know that even with telehealth, you do have to find a therapist who is licensed in the state that you were physically in at the time of your session. 

Stacy Courtney: So, Destiny, this has been a fantastic conversation. I've learned so much, and I would love for you to give the audience maybe top three takeaways on how they can apply this in their lives, in dealing with their chronic illness with grief and loss. 

Destiny Davis: I think first remembering: Guilt and shame are two different things. From a place of what is important to us and not from a place of “I am someone bad.” Sometimes we do things that are wrong. We are all human. Healthy guilt can be a good thing. What's not healthy is when we take on the shame that comes from other people being upset about us, for example, having an illness that's not your fault. So, really trying to distinguish that for yourself. When should I feel guilty about something and when should I feel shame about something? Like, get curious about that. I guess another takeaway, although we didn't specifically talk about this in this episode, but curiosity, I think, is the skill that helps us along this whole journey. Just constantly being curious, trying to leave assumptions at the door, pausing and being curious about what's happening, rather than jumping to conclusions, which is a very hard thing to do in this setting. 

Stacy Courtney: A couple of my top takeaways: It's guilt, not shame, they're completely separate, and so I appreciate you pointing that out. Also feeling guilty about not being able to do certain things with John when he was little. But like you said, we're part of this village, and there are other things that I can bring to the table. He learned what I can and can't do, and he is accepting of that, and he really didn't know any differently. Realizing that I'm still valuable. I might not be able to do everything that some other moms could have done, but I'm still important and could do other things. And also: I'm going to come and see you. (laughter) I really enjoyed this conversation. And I appreciate all of the knowledge that you have shared today with us. It's been a great conversation. Really appreciate your time. 

Destiny Davis: Thank you. 

Stacy Courtney: And appreciate all of our listeners. Our website, arthritis.org, is a wealth of knowledge around all sorts of information on mental health, physical health. We have various Connect Groups, so you can connect with others who are living a shared experience. Go to arthritis.org. And also email your thoughts about today's episode to [email protected]. 

PODCAST CLOSE: Thank you for listening to the Live Yes! With Arthritis podcast, produced as a public service by the Arthritis Foundation. Get show notes and other episode details at arthritis.org/podcast. Review, rate and recommend us wherever you get your podcasts, on Apple, Spotify and other platforms. This podcast and other life-changing Arthritis Foundation programs, resources and services are made possible in part by generous donors like you. Consider making a gift to support our work at arthritis.org/donate. We appreciate you listening. And please join us again!